This week we detail the language in the new terms announced by the WGA in their deal with the studios (AMPTA) that have come as a result of the writers strike. The new deal provides no real transparency into viewership numbers outside of total hours streamed and only for self-produced high budget streaming programs. We also discuss Amazon's news that starting in early 2024 Prime Video shows and movies will include limited advertisements. Finally, we provide some details on the recent ruling from a German court that Netflix is infringing on Broadcom's video patent related to HEVC.
Podcast produced by Security Halt Media
This week we detail the language in the new terms announced by the WGA in their deal with the studios (AMPTA) that have come as a result of the writers strike. The new deal provides no real transparency into viewership numbers outside of total hours streamed and only for self-produced high budget streaming programs. We also discuss Amazon's news that starting in early 2024 Prime Video shows and movies will include limited advertisements. Finally, we provide some details on the recent ruling from a German court that Netflix is infringing on Broadcom's video patent related to HEVC.
Podcast produced by Security Halt Media
Welcome to this week's edition of the Dan Rayburn podcast, the show that curates the streaming media industry news that matters most, unvarnished, unscripted and providing you with the factual data you need to know, without any of the hype, the pulse of the streaming media industry.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Dan Rayburn podcast. I'm Dan Rayburn, back with co-host Mark Donigan After two week hiatus. Mark is back from IBC. That's right, and vacation right. You got some vacation into it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, a little bit, a few days. It was nice. Nice, that counts, that counts, it does count. Yep, yep, every little bit You're ready there for work. Put it to use.
Speaker 2:Stay in the area.
Speaker 3:There, you go.
Speaker 2:So while you're gone, Mark, I mentioned last week just a little recap from IBC of doing more with less, kind of a theme you and I talked about. Yeah for sure, Nothing really at IBC other than that that we're going to cover. Let's jump into some of the news over the last week.
Speaker 2:There are some pretty unique announcements that I think just are big when it comes to Disney doing password sharing, crackdown, some things like that. But let's start with the first one, which is the final contract. Language is still being drafted, but the writers have reached a tentative deal with the studios to end their strike after more than 150 days. So what has to be happening here is the agreement needs to be officially ratified, has to be voted on. The WGA did finally disclose the provisions of what has changed. The problem is it's very high level, which is what I want to talk about today.
Speaker 2:So, on the digital side, the big thing that everyone is talking about is that writers and actors and others everyone tied into video creation and production. When it comes to distribution on streaming, they want insight and some transparency into the numbers, which we've obviously heard about for a long time. So I'm seeing some in the media say that, because of this deal, there will now be real, actual hard data available, but that's really not the case. So, if you don't know what was agreed upon, basically all the streamers have to do, depending on a certain size show from a budget standpoint, they have to provide the total number of hours streamed, both domestically and internationally, of only self-produced high budget streaming programs, for instance the Netflix original series. It's under NDA it's confidentiality, of course.
Speaker 2:it is Of course so we're not going to get it. Some of these numbers can be shared legally with memberships in an aggregated form only Interesting Yep. So people in the industry saying, oh, we're finally getting transparency here. What I don't understand is okay, you're going to get total number of hours streamed, you're not getting unique users, you're not getting from what regions of the world, you're not getting breakdown on devices, you're not getting average time, ama, average minute audience are spent.
Speaker 2:And I don't like the fact that we're going to look at number of hours and think, okay, well, that's a popular show, so it's going to do well in terms of getting renewals, because popularity doesn't equal profitability. And then you add in, mark, the fact that a lot of these services, including Netflix now, are running ads with an AVOD tier. Well, just because something's popular, we don't know how much money it's making from an advertising standpoint. Yeah, that's right. So the rest of us aren't necessarily going to see the basic metrics, since everything's under NDA. I think we will see some data in aggregate, since the WGA is allowed to do that. But this idea that some are reporting that, oh, finally, those involved have gotten transparency, I don't think that's transparency because, okay, our viewed, we know what that means, but you're not breaking it down by region. It also doesn't say it's very interesting. It doesn't say the frequency at which they're getting this. Now, maybe that's still some of the fine details to work out.
Speaker 3:Exactly. Yeah, Maybe that's being, and maybe they're individually able to negotiate that per studio or per media company.
Speaker 2:That didn't seem to be the case based on the language of what the.
Speaker 1:WGA put out from the high level.
Speaker 2:I mean we have not seen the actual contractual legal language. Yeah, that's right. So is it good in that? Okay, in the sense that there'll be a little bit of information on total number of hours.
Speaker 3:Sure.
Speaker 2:I guess that's okay. But then I was thinking someone like a Roku already puts that out every quarter in their quarterly earnings report. Now they don't break it out based on show or what was through their Roku channel or other applications, streaming applications that are on their platform. But that's all that the writers are going to get. That's just the reality of it. We also saw an announcement here telling you the advertising that, not surprisingly, amazon has announced that, starting in quote, early 2024, prime video shows and movies are going to include limited advertisements. I don't know what limited means.
Speaker 2:But Amazon did say, with regards to limited, they are, quote planning to have meaningful fewer ads than linear TV and other streaming providers. Maybe that's just a start. They didn't say over what period of time, so they're also going to offer a new ad free option to US and additional costs of $2.99 per month. I did, like Mark, that they came out and said when this comes out in early 2024, they are not making changes next year to the current price of a prime membership. So we at least know Amazon Prime membership will not be going up next year and seeing a rate yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, although you know effectively, if you don't want ads, it's another $36 a year, Right.
Speaker 2:So, but how many people are going to?
Speaker 1:select. That I think very few.
Speaker 2:We've heard from Hulu and others. It's not a popular plan.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, it's interesting because you know watching content on, you know I'm catching up on the last season of Billions and, and you know you start, you start it and they're running effectively a trailer for other content before each episode.
Speaker 2:True.
Speaker 3:Yeah, now you know it's. It doesn't feel like it's advertising, but in reality it's like half the shows I'm not interested in. I'm like you know. Can I just skip this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3:That is an ad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's an ad you know, put it in your name, yeah exactly. At least it's not for paper towels, or you know something.
Speaker 3:I'm really like oh come on.
Speaker 2:Are you better than that? You mentioned paper towels, but if there's one thing that Amazon knows about us, if you're a prime member, is they know we're buying, yeah, we buy, so very curious to see how they're going to do the ads.
Speaker 2:Last night we were recording this on Friday, september 29th. Last night I saw some of the ad overlays they were running for Thursday Night Football on Prime Video and I was hey, if you want to learn more about this water brand, just you know, click, enter your Fire TV remote, that's right. And what was interesting is it then said okay, we've sent the the link to check it out into your Amazon application on your phone.
Speaker 1:Well, what if I?
Speaker 2:don't have the Amazon application on my phone.
Speaker 2:So what it did, which was interesting pushing you to install it, pushing me to install, but also sent me a separate email saying Dan, here's the thing on essential water. I think it was an essential water ad and then, when you clicked on that, it took you a page on Amazon where it showed all of the waters that they sell. So the functionality did work. We're not going to get any numbers in terms of how many people are actually using it, but it's an ad overlay where you're not scanning a QR code or punching something in.
Speaker 3:Well, you and I have mentioned this. You know we were talking about how we theorize that Netflix was going to really come up with some innovative new ad products, ad solutions, et cetera. Clearly there's going to be some innovation in this area and I think by large consumers and again, multiple times we've pointed out that as much as the rhetoric inside the industry is, consumers hate advertising that actually is not true and you and I have said that. Now, what we hate and what they hate and what all of the surveys and the data shows, is they hate when you get sort of paper towel ads, you know, or ads that are not appropriate for you know, yeah, for what I need, you know, like so that's annoying and people hate that. But you know I'm in the market for a car, you know I may not be looking at a particular brand, but you know I get sort of car ads. Hey, you know, that's interesting. At least there's some relevance there, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:And I'm happy to see what Amazon does there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's going to be.
Speaker 2:Because they have so much information on us.
Speaker 3:Sure, sure, exactly yeah, and of course you know, then it's the usual creep factor. You know, how do you not make it so creepy? You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was also thinking with the ads last night with Amazon Prime Video, with NFL Thursday Night Football I get that Subway is a sponsor of that, but why do I have to see a Subway ad on almost every ad? I can't break.
Speaker 1:I know it's already.
Speaker 2:I know it's brand burnout and it was interesting how many people on Twitter were like, yeah, okay, I get it Subway, but like this is annoying me now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So the advertising side will be very interesting to see how Amazon implements that. No official dates, just early 2024. Yeah, now also ad-free option, only in the US to start. They did talk about rolling out ads in other countries over time, but no additional details as of now.
Speaker 2:The next one, mark, is so Disney plus subscribers have been notified via Disney in Canada about how they're making changes that are going to go into effect November 1st of this year as far as password sharing. So they made some changes to their terms of service and I'm going to read it right here. What they're saying is we're implementing restrictions on your ability to share your account or login credentials outside of your household. You may not share your subscription outside of your household End quote. Now they note that a household means the collection of devices associated with your primary personal residents that are used by the individuals who reside there, interesting, so pretty specific in terms of how they're saying household and devices within that specific place that you also reside in. So this is also going to be coming to the US some sort of password sharing.
Speaker 2:The other thing they said is we've begun updating our subscriber agreements to clarify the rules relating to the sharing of accounts in several markets, with the US coming later this year. That said, let's not assume they're going to roll it out the same way in the US like they did in Canada, because we saw Netflix rolled out a certain way in Canada but then they didn't put some of those restrictions when they rolled it out in the US. So it'll be interesting to see exactly what they do, but it's coming. We already see it. End quote. So it's definitely coming. We don't know what later in this year means, but it's coming Real quick. Mark HBO licensing we talked recently about how some content that was on Macs Band of Brothers some other things are now on Netflix.
Speaker 2:Netflix, yeah. People in the industry are like, ah, it's kind of crazy, you should keep everything on your own platform. But HBO CEO this week, speaking at a tech conference, said quote what's been nice about it? This type of deal is, without doing a thing on Macs. The viewership or engagement of, for instance, ballers and insecure saw a spike when we put it on Netflix. You're introducing it to more people. It's marketing, sure, sure. Then he said I think what you have to balance is not putting too much out there. People think, oh, I'll just wait until it comes here or there. He said so I don't really know the right answer. I don't think anybody does right now, but very clear that they're saying the reason they're doing this is they're seeing a tangible business benefit that they are measuring.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Now we don't know their full methodology, of course. Sure, that's, you know. We don't know what spike means Spike of viewers spike of signups.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, I mean that. So a spike in more people watching ballers? Well, of course it's on two platforms. But is he saying, hey, we can correlate that a certain percentage of those people went and signed up for Macs, or? I would think there's got to be something that drives back to Mac's subscription growth, or?
Speaker 2:just, I don't know less, churn something. They obviously are using a methodology that so far they're saying makes sense, which I think is an industry mark we have to take note of, because people in the industry are so quick to say these platforms have to be closed and if you take any content off your platform and distribute it somewhere else, you're hurting your subscribers.
Speaker 3:Well, that is not a proven fact, that's your opinion, yeah, yeah, and one of the things that the studios in particular have perfected. It is an absolute science and they have large groups of people I mean very large groups of people, who are incredibly analytic in their analytic goal, in their analysis of what it takes to market, and it's why, when they put out box office numbers, or when box office numbers come in, they kind of know what a movie's going to do. And, yeah, there's always surprises, always it's the arts, right, so there's always the movie that breaks out that nobody predicted and there's the movie that bombs. But the point is, their methodologies are pretty well understood and they know how to measure consumer sentiment and just so, look, why aren't these streaming services and this is the rhetorical question building the same capabilities? And I believe they are, and they have been.
Speaker 2:I think they are as well. But at the same time it's interesting for him to say nobody really knows the answer right now, not yet.
Speaker 3:Well, but he was saying that, wasn't he, in the context of, like, how much is too much, and I think his point is very valid. Like I'm a Netflix subscriber and more people are especially at brand like HBO, I would have to believe a fairly high percentage of Netflix viewers understand, kind of who HBO is, the kinds of content, and so you could be like, oh wow, this is cool, yeah, okay, hey, maybe I'm just going to wait. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I think we get too much credit to consumers, ability to analyze it.
Speaker 3:The other times I've said it here. I think we underestimate that consumers kind of know some of this stuff. They arrive at decisions On their own. I also just wonder, okay, band of brothers.
Speaker 2:Take that.
Speaker 1:What percentage of?
Speaker 2:HBO or max users have already seen it. If it's a large percentage, then maybe you do benefit from putting it somewhere else.
Speaker 1:So I think it's interesting. We're obviously seeing more of that.
Speaker 2:We're going to continue to, but it was interesting for the CEO to talk about it. Yeah, I think that's a good answer, for sure. A couple other pieces of news here. So, if you haven't heard, Netflix, Paramount, Warner Brothers, Discovery, Comcast, Disney and Univision including some smaller OTT providers as well a formed a new group that they're calling the Streaming Innovation Alliance, SIA.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is interesting.
Speaker 2:It's interesting Absolute Launcher, Apple, Amazon, Roku and some other big name streamers. But the whole goal of this group is tied to lobbying and regulatory policymaking. That's what they're working on Rules and regulations that potentially could impact them in DC. So not surprising they're pooling resources and legal resources. But if you go to their website, this is 100% them pitching regulators of like, hey, you should not do this or not do that, and here's why. And everything that you're thinking of is bad for consumers. Of course you can tell it's written by lawyers. Yeah, yeah, Not surprising. Look, every industry does that. I don't fault them for doing it, trying to get what they can for their business, what's best for them.
Speaker 2:Interesting stat here, Mark, which I like because we're always talking sports. So, NBC Sports the Ohio State's victory over the University of Notre Dame about a week ago was its most-streamed college football simulcast, with an AMA-average-minute audience on Peacock and NBC Sports digital platforms of 605,000 viewers. Yeah, Now, overall viewership peaked at 14.2 million viewers when combined with pay TV. So if pay TV and Peacock and NBC Sports digital platforms peaked at the same time, that means streaming made up only 4.2% of total viewership at peak. So, for all the talk about sports going to streaming okay, it is in some cases, but look at where the vast majority of the largest viewership is coming from sports.
Speaker 2:Broadcast TV in some cases when it's streaming only exclusives, except in local markets like Amazon. Thursday Night Football okay, we obviously know those numbers will be higher, but interesting. 4.2%.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:Another one here, mark September 25th, so just a few days ago, the German court ruled that Netflix is infringing on Broadcom's video patent related to HEVC, and they issued an injunction requiring Netflix to cease and desist all further infringement in Germany. Now, this is a suit that's been ongoing since 2018 over numerous US, german, dutch patents, and this particular ruling was tied to one patent, the 366 patent, as they call it. So, from the limited information I have, it looks like this ruling only impacts their UHD streams in Germany. Netflix has not put out a public comment about this. I don't know if they plan to, but they could also just stop offering UHD, as it means a complaint.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, and just to be clear, it's not that it is targeted by resolution, it's just that Netflix is using, in most all markets, hevc on UHD. Well, uhd exclusively. They are not delivering. There's not a single UHD stream in H.264 that I know of anyway. Maybe there is, but I don't believe so. They are increasingly as HEVC native playback. So hardware decoders are becoming available increasingly. The entire ABR ladder, meaning lower resolutions, 480p on up, is HEVC. But just to be clear, it's not that this is targeted only on resolution, it's just that in the EU and anywhere else in the world, it's UHD streams that are encoded with.
Speaker 2:HEVC.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is sad because it means that guess what? It's that highest quality and it's that best profile that could go away. And yeah, you're absolutely right For them to turn this off. I don't want to trivialize, but it is relatively simple, so they can just simply take that profile out. Now your top profile is 1080p at 4.5 megabits with H.264.
Speaker 2:And will anybody notice? Maybe not we also don't know how many customers they have that have the last tier package. So we'll see how they react to that. There's no public comment yet. I have asked them for one or what.
Speaker 1:I asked if they plan to put one out.
Speaker 2:I think they will put one out, even if it's in their regulatory filing.
Speaker 3:Well, that's true, they will have to mention it. They will have to, yeah, they will have to mention it.
Speaker 2:To what degree we don't know. So their earnings are on October 18th. They're coming up actually, wow less than three weeks.
Speaker 2:So we're in October already, so that's something to watch. And also, just for people that don't know, the Broadcom Netflix thing has been going on for many years. So in 2020, broadcom filed suit against Netflix in the US over eight patents tied to video playback and transmission, and I love Broadcom's argument. So here's their argument and why they're selling them. We're saying, basically because Netflix offers an OTT service that is so good and then it's contributed to cord cutting from pay TV services. Broadcom is selling fewer set top cable boxes. It's crazy, really, you're blaming them. That is just pretty, pretty funny.
Speaker 1:Also for those that don't know.
Speaker 2:Broadcom filed the same suit against smart TV manufacturers in 2017. And the following year, in 2018, vizio and Sigma Designs were found to not have infringed on their patents.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So Broadcom had some failures in the market, going after these suits, these patent suits. But, man, that is your business model like complete.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's your, yeah, that's your, that's your complaint.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, man, talk about a company where it just seems like you're still playing in the old days of pay TV, in the early days of the internet. Is that the truth? Come on, guys this is the reality of what's going on in the market today. How about you shift and change and adapt your strategy in the market based on what's going on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but, no, let's just complain about legacy models. Yeah, the wording, though. If you read a mark you'll laugh. The wording in the suit was just. It was comical. One final piece here just YouTube's been doing a great job, still with Sunday NFL ticket.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know you've been watching that closely right, I have every weekend Also.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to put this on the record here. So Google reached out and said, hey, we loved your review and blog and would you mind if we used your review in commercials for the service and online? I was like, yeah, go ahead. Right, it's public, go ahead and use it. So I am not, if you see, you know, according to Dan Rayburn on your next YouTube TV commercial.
Speaker 1:I am not getting paid.
Speaker 2:I said I will do it, but I will do it for no money. I did sign a waiver so they can legally use it, but I'm not getting paid in any way. I think credit is due. Where credit is due, I'm willing to give it. So I have been watching it. I like the fact that they announced they're now going to offer free 15 minute previews to NFL Sunday ticket every Sunday, but only between 1 pm and 2.30 pm Eastern.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's interesting yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know why that timeframe yeah.
Speaker 3:Again, somebody's done some analysis, I guarantee it.
Speaker 2:I'll ask them. I wouldn't be surprised if I get an answer on that one, but they're still doing a great job. Amazon's Thursday night football, last night man, there's still. You know, there's 25, 30, 40 comments coming in every minute on Twitter of problems people sharing, stuttering. Also, they have part of the problem that they've done here and I'm going to go into details that I can't but they have complicated their video workflow to a degree they don't need to do, between HDR and, you know, versailles and just the way they're doing ingestion, like they're making this more complicated than they have to. And for what reason? Hdr for sports in particular. Every time that there's a night game comes on, it is so dark on my TV it doesn't look good. So are you doing it because you want to say it's the first HDR stream or are you doing it because it benefits the user experience? Because it doesn't benefit mine?
Speaker 3:Do you know? I would assume it's HLG Do you know what format that they are?
Speaker 2:They are not willing to discuss anything regarding technical stack of any kind, as Amazon is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I would assume HLG and your TVs are all pretty modern, right, I mean, or you know like what All my TVs are within the last.
Speaker 2:Call it three to four years. I swiped them out pretty frequently.
Speaker 3:Okay, I call that, I consider that modern. Yeah, I've had five to six years, you know that's. But yeah, three to four years, pretty much all, and you're running middle to even higher end TV.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I'm running.
Speaker 3:LG OLEDs, oh yeah, okay, okay, so yeah, and this is why HDR, you know, is still, is still tricky, because there can be signaling issues between TVs when you know there can be obviously, well, just plain lack of support for a standard. Now, you know, in theory, hlg, you know, gracefully rolls back to SDR and yeah, and that's why I'm almost 100, I mean, hlg really is the correct format, but there's still some televisions that do not signal and get that right. And you know, but the point is, is that, guess what? That's not the consumer's problem. You know the consumer shouldn't have to worry, you know, like, do I have to write television to watch this stream? They have enough just starting to find the content, enough to worry about. You know.
Speaker 2:Yes, and also you know you make a good point there too. One of the things when it comes to HDR is, I noticed, on the Amazon support pages, they're telling you to get the best experience. Here's the settings they want you to change on your TV. Yeah, so setting the correct gamma curve gamma, gamma, gamma yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I gotta go in just for Amazon on Thursday night and change the settings on my TV, just for you guys, yeah, yeah. Come on, yeah, imagine trying to explain that to your parents over the phone, oh geez. So I just I don't see the reason to complicate your workflow. The other thing I saw last night is on the TV the stream on the TV versus the stream on my MacBook. The stream on my MacBook was 52 seconds behind streaming my TV. Why is there such a big gap in latency? I don't know 52.
Speaker 3:52 seconds behind you, set on your laptop, right yeah we're a new one-year-old MacBook Pro. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's 52 seconds behind the.
Speaker 2:Fire TV stream from a Fire TV stick, which is odd to me. Now, at the same time, I don't know where size being implemented and where it isn't. But again, I don't think that's relevant, but yeah the latency yesterday was really weird.
Speaker 2:So it's the experience to me is all over the place. Yeah, you know, is only 1% of the total viewers who are complaining online? Is it only 1%? I don't know, maybe it is. Yeah, so it's unfortunate. We just we don't have any information of any kind. I'm hoping, once the season's over, maybe they do a technical write up there. The Amazon AWS in particular, which is obviously supporting some of this, is really good with their case studies. Yeah, yeah, they are, they are. So I hope we get something, but right now it's a bit unknown in terms of the workflow and then some of the pieces I do know I can't talk to, but I think some of that will come out over time. Yeah, so, mark, that's all we got right now. This is good. We're at 28 minutes. We've got some things coming up. Next week We'll do a preview of the NAB show streaming summit in New York City. In another week or two. I can't believe that's only like 25 days out, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:How are you feeling? Is everything set up? I'm feeling good.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's a great lineup in terms of who we have, we're excited to sit with two executives from Disney and they want to talk about their ad stack. Yeah, that's going to be great. Who's been added since we last spoke? Sling TV, peloton that's great, interesting there. Ze5, global Vizio we already had YouTube. We've added LG let's see. We added Cox Media Group, so that's good in terms of packaging. Another person from Paramount that's all in just day one, even Wow, wow. And then day two, hot Star a bunch of companies still holding on day two for one or two panels, so I still have about 10 speakers to add. Well, good, but the entire program is online. Nabstreamingsummitcom. I have not announced the keynote for day two. I'm working on something. Hopefully I know in the next day or two that they'll accept it the president of a company, but I'm excited for the show, lining it up and for people that can't make it, I'm going to be doing editorial coverage on my LinkedIn and Twitter account in real time, like I do for every single session.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's great so plenty of coverage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm disappointed.
Speaker 3:I had a conflict just get booked, so I'm not going to make it.
Speaker 2:There's only so many shows you can go to work, it's you know.
Speaker 3:No, I know Can't beat every dance. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Reality of the industry we're in there's a lot of shows.
Speaker 3:It's a reality, yeah.
Speaker 2:And if anyone's planning to go even last minute, reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'll give you a discount code so you can get in. We've kept it super affordable. It's about $500 for both days, plus it gets, you know, all the happy hours, cocktail parties, everything. So very affordable considering the caliber of speakers that are going to be there in two days of good content. Yeah, yeah. So in the meantime, if you guys have any questions, reach out to Mark and I. We appreciate you listening, mark. We're at about 30,000 downloads now, wow.
Speaker 1:Which is great on our 71st episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting to see the last call at 20 to 25. Episodes are really cranking up now in terms of downloads and number of listening, so it's it continues to grow extremely well.
Speaker 2:We appreciate everyone's support. If you have any questions, if there's something you want to hear in the podcast, reach out to Mark and I on LinkedIn. Anything that we talked about today. I already have his blog post up on LinkedIn as well, so you can see all those data and all the good numbers. So any questions, let us know. Otherwise we'll talk to you on the next podcast. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed the show, send it to a friend. Have questions for Dan or Mark? Check them out on LinkedIn at any time and be sure to check out Dan's blog at streamingmediablogcom.